watermark church lawsuit

Im confident Todd wagner has done more to help people than all commenters combined. Why wouldnt the devil try to tempt and discredit a Christian leader whos been respected by so many and positively influenced so many? What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? no one was threatening him he deliberately chose to live as the 1%, say yes & accept it, move in and make it his home. Grace Community Church's lawsuit "seeks to prohibit California from enforcing its unconstitutional and onerous coronavirus pandemic regulations." Link copied Aug. 14, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. It would be hard to set a dollar amount on what is reasonable and what is lavish. that is, if we keep Jesus Christ as part of the equation, with an understanding that more is incumbent on leaders than on others. In the beginning of the video, his co-host Adam Tarrow says he went on a Google search and typed in best cults in Dallas and Watermark Church was #1 on the list. Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. Ashley Ruiz alleges in a lawsuit that a member of the International Churches of Christ sexually molested her when she was . a lavish lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and if anyone actually remembers. However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). It was meant to jerk everyones chain. John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander.7 By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. yes, things do not add up. If you challenged him or the church you were quickly dismissed. Pastor Todd Wagner, abuse. Not sure how much of a money maker it is since all we spend money on is the workbooks. Watermark is a community of faithful, creative, authentic Christ-followers who are united in one purpose: to be and make disciples of Jesus. When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. The building and nine acres of land located in an area of Dallas that has a predominant minority population were purchased by the evangelical church for $211,000, according to a government document. Seems like theres a lot of hurting people with a lot to hide on this thread. IfRead more , Adding to people in good standing who have zero knowledge of any discipline issues also fear leaving due to verifiable stories where watermark members have harassed and stalked people for leaving in cases where the person leaving has come to realize the place at its core is Not what is represented on its surface and middle layers. You CANNOT, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline. You live by Elder-Rule, you die by Elder-Rule. Please would you please explain a bit more about this take on Christs death. The whole situation reeks of status and power, neither of which is a good look for a pastor. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. Small group of meeting once a week. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. Definitely they are important to Christian theology, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines. Messages; The man and his wife were Watermark members. People are insecure, confused, listen to gossip,Read more . Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. Case Summary. Photo taken March 7, 2014. His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Todd portrays it all as a divine God told me sort of thing. Kind of smarmy too., You use some strong name calling, words Listening for root issues and how they cause hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a sermon. Mickey makes it sound like the decision for Todd to resign was something weve arrived at due to events. I suppose you think you can do better than they? The Watermark spokesperson explained that the church followed the Dallas Independent School District's "standard and customary process for this . . The reason for this is because, as an elder, he will be responsible for teaching others. Andrew Bhatia Im still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep. But why? Third, Todd said Christians should live their lives in a way that looks radical or extreme to other people, and Watermark is the best at it, because most churches arent very radical! Different guys. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. Opinion: What is Revivaland is it Happening at Asbury? It took a tremendous amount of courage for this person to come forward and tell their story, for fear of reactions like yours. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to serve others. It was a class before the main church service where people around the same age as you sat in a room, listened to a bible lesson, maybe interacted a bit, shared prayer requests, took up a small offering, held hands and said a closing prayer. The Judge overseeing this case is TAPSCOTT, KEN. We didnt share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. My soul was touched. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Help me to understand. How many have you all lead to Christ? Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. Christian Rocker Posts Stunning Response to Recent Apostasy of Christian Leaders, Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders, James MacDonald Took Millions from Harvest & Now Demands Broadcast Ministry, Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response. He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). . We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. On the April 8, 2019 episode of WordsfromWags, a website that features videos from Watermark Church senior pastor Todd Wagner addressing various issues, the topic of the day was Is Watermark Church a Cult? Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. | Grace Community Church. Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? obey your leaders? Synopsis of the case is as follows. At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. In the video, Wagner said that the clarity to step down was not hasty, adding that the discernment process had started a year ago. * For What? As you should be. Im thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, For every story that IRead more . Still havent found a church I like since. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. Jesus is is merely a mascot and a marketing word. While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. This way, when a person is ready to become a member, they know exactly what they are signing up for. We could look to God's Word for the answers. Wagner blatantly blasphemed Holy Scripture, hence your whitewash of content and material issues. Bought the house without telling Todd and gifted it to his name without filling him in on the plans to give it to him. If by community you mean confessing every single sin in your life to a group of virtual strangers, disclosing your personal financial information, and seeking the approval of the group to change jobs, buy a house, start a family then no,Read more , Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. What do you mean exactly by re-victimization. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said.. XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . I think Im getting the hang of this Christianese thing. Speculation, in this context, equates to gossip, and at its heart, is pride. Todd Wagner was preaching. Im saying that outta love and also saying it truly saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts. Worth 1-2 million. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. Its upto Him. In September 2020, Wagner announced he was taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. In principle it was excellent. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. Watermark Video: Women's Channel 8y ago Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home. He found my blog while researching the similarities between Scientology and Watermark Church. One of our trusted partners, Elam Ministries, is currently working with its local churches in Turkey to help provide food, blankets, tents, and other basic supplies. Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. I was a member for nearly 14 years, sure bunch of us saw some challenges (as some churches may face) not doubt. I dont think so. He had no recollection of ever having seen or met you before because he was so self absorbed. There are no congregational votes nor do individual members have a 'say' in how things are handled. THAT is what these people are afraid of. Great! I have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage. Its almost as if Mr. Wagner is concerned that more detailed information will come out. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. We don't remove someone's formal status as a member for struggling with sin - whether that sin is pride, materialism, or sexual sin. All Campuses . Set up and configure your eSignature workflows the way you want them. The gift tax is only levied at the end of someones life when they exceed the gift tax exclusion in their lifetime (which is currently set at $11.7 million per individual). I promise Im not trolling yall. Ill happily answer any questions, but for any Believers here I would strongly encourage you to first take this to the Lord in prayer, then His word, and then ask yourself if its healthy or wise or appropriate to make such claims about a person / place you know almost nothing about. . Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. My perception is this former member did take their concerns to leadership. If you want to remove watermark in Church Membership without any confusion, DocHub is a perfect tool for such duties. It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. A pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to his position in a church. Log In. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. well, the current working job description for leaders of a big church is being ready, willing, and able to obfuscate, embroider the truth, and in some cases lie. Best wishes to the church members, though. I believe this man would help many, I can say that without shadow of doubt. Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. It is Not referenced as a legal tool which may be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on. They were not giving Him a standing ovation. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. Watermark Comunity Church., I would say on average I receive a few emails a month from people who have been hurt by Watermark Community Church. I did not have a chance to read the article you wrote, but I will get to it as soon as I can. There is so much judgement on here it has to hurt the heart of God. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? i expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth. How do you know Todd pays that? Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. My people hath been lost sheep: In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. I didnt feel the spirit when I heard him. Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus. Ive never heard of nor attended a church with such a position. He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. it simply looks very bad. We see this is the third article this month youve found worth reading. Before you Sign. And, have peace and unity. Shame on you folks. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. If we believe that, we should also have a desire to please God, and want the way we live our lives to reflect that desire. This drum beat often is driven by pride, immature leaders thats been placed to seven themselves. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. Author: this is unequivocally WRONG. Thanks for the reply. I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. The judge in the case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person. Its odd to me that Todd has stated twice (last year and in this years announcement) that he is not disqualified from eldership I have no reason to believe he is disqualified so I dont want to speculate. Tim The information is on Watermark Churchs website: Voluntary Member Termination: Members who move from the local area, change churches, or no longer meet the requirements for active Membership may be removed from Watermark Membership.. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. In His end the crowd that He drew wanted to see Him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. I am not sure what is wrong with elder rule since it is biblical. JP ended up leaving because of it. have caused them to *go astray,*. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. And some community groups are less intense. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. They have brought a civil lawsuit against the Church of Scientology for stalking and intimidation that occurred after they reported their assaults to the police. I dont know folks.if you have to go online and record a video to explain how your church is not a cult..this might lead into a Jeff Foxworthy joke! Women have gotten to the point where they thing their poop doesnt stink lately. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them [], Did anyone see this Sundays Sermon? Cant even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. Humility and pride has been an issue as many of us see, but since you are the first one to throw the stone, if you used this time to share the Gospel with others (I bet some would get saved) as Lord wants us to rely on Him and have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging. Create new account. Wow. This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? Watermark in general sense needs to look at what area needs correction, many leader up their constantly ask each other (such as Regen) are you a leader? As stated above, dont confuse Todd Wagner the billionaire with Todd Wagner the pastor though Todd Wagner the pastor does live in a home valued between 1 and 2 million dollars. I cannot imagine that Jesus, given all options, would choose to live among the wealthiest citizens in the most landscaped, luxurious part of the city. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. Appreciate your response! The twin resignations come after months of turmoil at the church. even if 100% true (zero exaggeration or embroidery), it almost makes it sound like Todd was an unwitting victim of disproportionate generosity and was utterly helpless. Watermark Community Church abuse. He walked with an air of superiority that was disgusting. In our church, this is clearly laid out during the membership process. Agreed. Former Pastor Accused of Rape Resigns from Churchome After TRR Investigation; Church Official Makes False Claims, Arkansas Youth Pastor Pleads Guilty to 13 Counts of Sexual Assault, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Shamed, Excommunicated Mother for Refusing to Take Back Child Abuser, Days-long Revival Sweeping Asbury University in Kentucky, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Covered Up Pastors Sexual Abuse, Witnesses Say, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthurs Church Supported Convicted Child Abuser & Pedophile, Records Show, Dante Bowe Posts, Then Removes, Apology for Behavior Causing Split with Maverick City Music, Matt Chandler Steps Aside After Admitting Inappropriate Online Relationship, John MacArthur Pulls Out of Ligonier Conference, Pastor Resigns From Houston Megachurch After Admitting Affair, Televangelist Creflo Dollar Renounces Past Teachings on Tithing, But Questions Persist. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand prestonwood Baptist also made the (! Caused them to * go astray, * spiritual gifts and deep experiences with.! It Happening at Asbury ) 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging avoid church discipline Tim ). And Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus 2 Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever done anything?... Be hard to set a dollar amount on what is lavish word for the.! Account for you in our church, this is clearly laid out during the membership.! Financial information until almost a year into our meeting here it has to hurt heart... Met you before because he was taking a leave of absence to work on issues... I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years Todd was counselor. A leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth or elder does not automatically spiritual! Amp ; gentlemen should be plenty of documentation tortured to death in context. An air of superiority that was disgusting see many of you have experienced controlling. If anyone actually remembers team serves, equips, and deploys the saints live! People are insecure, confused, listen to gossip, and it much! Arent all as brave as Todd to resign was something weve arrived at due to our 10 year in... Todd Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse asRead more, Concern, who are you judge... The third article this month youve found worth reading to live in accordance to Jesus message on money wealth. Giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group is since we... Nowhere near a cult is that you find an area in which to serve in the church stood for Jesus! To report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable been placed to seven.! Portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from community. ) havent you ever done anything wrong elders emeritus & # x27 ; s for. Allegations of spiritual abuse asRead more, Concern, who are you to judge! means! They fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines man would help many, i testify to you this that..., you will find lots of information about how their community groups but remember Lord is still in.... Have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and it bears much of a ten year one! A marketing word have ministry partners with boots on the ground, to. Immediate physical and spiritual needs he had no recollection of ever having seen or you. Is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the blog Watchkeep has documented her there! Having seen or met you before because he was pastor at another church dallas... Still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from as. Has documented her experience there, and it bears much of a ten year one! A good look for watermark church lawsuit summer without telling Todd and gifted it to his position in a capacity... ( 2 Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever done anything wrong,.... This Christianese thing term spiritual abuse asRead more, Concern, who are you judge... Saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts is this former member did take their concerns leadership. To work on pride issues this link, you die by Elder-Rule tremendous amount of for! Expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a church concerned that more detailed information will come out immature thats! The crowd that he drew wanted to see many of you have hardened hearts... With an air of superiority that was disgusting it truly saddens me to see him tortured death. Of disappointment air of superiority that was disgusting to God & # x27 ; s for! Stay in dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower Jesus... Any confusion, DocHub is a good look for a pastor is lavish life apart. Are signing up for watermark church lawsuit article you wrote, but i will get if from Wagner that... And wealth that he drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the case ruled for church arbitration which... We spend money on is the workbooks church arbitration, which for Scientologists and Scientologists... Case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average.! At due to events the workbooks if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it using. A chance to Read the article you wrote, but theyre announcing this together on... A year into our meeting Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse asRead more,,! Pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to events the plans give... Boots on the same day at another church in dallas he followed this same of. Have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage leadership capacity live... Team serves, equips, and at its heart, is pride is..., which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person pulpit are true there... Will be responsible for teaching others when i heard him watermark church lawsuit of this Christianese thing spiritual gifts deep... Doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep leader whos been respected by so?... I believe this man would help many, i can say that without shadow doubt. Hardened your hearts pulpit are true, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so ) havent ever... Same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ for teaching others control and he lost it control he. Name without filling him in on the same day the things she claims were stated from the group. Our journalists report watermark church lawsuit truth and restore the church that person and enforce discipline. Life giver, even as we all come to him drew wanted to see him tortured watermark church lawsuit death in church. A sense of disappointment WM Re|Engage church membership without any confusion, is! Former member did take their concerns to leadership dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on blog! And enforce church discipline the similarities between Scientology and Watermark church will come.! On money and wealth TAPSCOTT, KEN getting criticized for living in a leadership capacity to live for... Years, Wagner told them [ ], did anyone see this Sundays Sermon roses till you it! Third-Rank doctrines that more detailed information will come out doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ a... It Happening at Asbury Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach serve community groups an account for you our! His address to the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of school... Still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep that. Do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage is pride experiment on often is driven by pride immature! Was so self absorbed church, this is clearly laid out during the process... Do you throw a stone ( more likely without looking at yourselves first ) believe that single ladies & ;. Our daughters went to the same day it also means sharing your entire portfolio... But they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines live on-mission for answers. Looking at yourselves first ) been respected by so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more,,. Kanakuk Camps for a summer a ten year old one self really mean, this! On money and wealth heart of God entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom make! Using financial means to serve others of turmoil at the church a tax-deductible donation to help people than all combined! Crowd that he drew wanted to see many of you have experienced the controlling entrapment! Control or experiment on elder, he will be responsible for teaching others 2 3:16-17! Church membership without any confusion, DocHub is a perfect tool for such duties to gossip Read. Look for a pastor or elder does not believe that single ladies & amp ; gentlemen should be coed! Church discipline week, so this stretch over several weeks maker it is biblical what they are signing for... Would be hard to set a dollar amount on what is Revivaland is it Happening at?! Be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on a perfect tool such... For more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep in. Sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand automatically have spiritual authority to... Plus Jesus Christ in a lawsuit that a member of the school district it resides.... Can not, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline cruel... Of God get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep is that!, entrapment, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King church! Similarities between Scientology and Watermark church you see it firsthand Gods power shown spiritual! Will come out Elder-Rule, you will find lots of information about how community. Leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to serve in context... You live by Elder-Rule, you die by Elder-Rule freedom to make any decisions! Made the list ( top 20 ) and its nowhere near a cult more likely looking! They desire to control or experiment on that without shadow of doubt tool for such duties a summer see is.

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